Make Memorable Soundbites for Media Interviews with Susan Harrow – Interview by Nancy Juetten
Memorable Soundbites with Susan Harrow & Nancy Juetten
Nancy: Hello it is Nancy Juetten and today is Monday October, 18th and what a fantastic learn more to earn more show we have in store for you today! Today we are talking about sound bites. How to do them well? What not to do? Why they’re important? How they can help elevate your brand and reputation? We’re going to get into some how-to and we may even get into some unexpected things that are probably just hanging out below the surface that you wish we would ask that we’re anticipating.
So that this next few minutes is going to be the best moments you can spend as you consider how you’re going to amplify your authority, your credibility, your wow factor and to make your interviews memorable. Who is my guest today? Oh, I’m so excited, it is none other than media coach Susan Harrow, who I’ve known for over 10 years. So let me tell you about Susan Harrow. Susan Harrow is a world-renowned media coach, marketing strategist, martial artist and author of the best-selling book by HarperCollins Sell Yourself Without Selling Your Soul®.
For the last 32 years, she’s run Harrow Communications, a media consultancy where she’s media trained thousands of CEOs, speakers, entrepreneurs and authors through courses for one-on-one consulting to multiply their revenue with media interviews by using messaging effectively without selling their soul. Her course The Zen of Fame: Your Genius Zone shows people how to promote themselves.
Susan: Your Genius Gone Viral.
Nancy: Oh! Your Genius Gone Viral. Sorry about that.
Susan: No worries.
Nancy: Shows people how to promote themselves with integrity and spirit and we’re going to talk a little bit about more about.
An Introductory Media GEM
Susan: I kind of like it, is in your Genius Zone. But just you know a quick thing just because we did that if anybody says anything incorrect, Nancy and I have known each other forever, just correct them with a neutral tone on the spot. Whether it’s your name or whether it’s something some, because somebody just introduced me the other day – I was doing a master class as a marital artist and I just and I started laughing. I go, I have been with my sweetie for almost 20 years, I know you’ve been with Steve for a really long time, I go but I am not a marital expert at all. So, I had to correct her on that, if it’s like super minor or whatever but I’m like no, no I can’t be out there as a like a marital expert.
Nancy: Well, yes indeed well thank you very much way to pack in a lesson before we even get started. You know like my last name is Juetten jut and like button and sometimes people will say Jouetten or they’ll say something and it’s like oh hey I can’t go through a whole interview with them calling me that, so I see no it’s Juetten like button.
Susan: And I’m sure you put that like in brackets and before every interview so they can say like button or they can say it right, right?
Nancy: I do.
Susan: Pre-emptively yeah.
Nancy: I do because sometimes there are people that we both worked with over the years that have had very unusual names that you can very likely mess up and so giving someone a phonetic spelling how do I actually say that Juetten like button, that’s most people know what a button is Juetten rhymes with button now you’ll never forget.
Susan: I love that.
Nancy: Which I suppose is like a sound bite just Juetten like button.
Susan: It is, it’s a very good sound bite.
Story of how we met and what media lesson to takeaway from it
Nancy: So, before we get into the nitty-gritty, I wanted to tell the story about how we met because one of the things that I’m often sharing with my clients is that there’s opportunity waiting for you, if you could just be ready for it and just have the courage to ask for what it is that you want. Do you remember what happened way back when, when you were doing your…
Susan: I tell that story all the time too because such a great story and if people are intimidated by quote-unquote sound bites, really they’re just your key messages, but they’re stories, statistics, facts, you know. They’re a mix of things that you move into the conversation and the most one of the most potent ones are stories because that’s what people remember that’s what gets the emotion. So yeah, I’d love to hear how you tell it, because we might have slightly different versions but yeah, I love this story and those are the things too just an FYI.
If the story even though this is a story, I think it’s over 10 years old, it’s it may be 15, because I think I was I was at you invited me to your play well I’m not going to I’ll share that after but I think it’s like 15 years. So, if the story is like timeless and it represents something you can use it over and over again just you know make it fresh, right? And Nancy will tell you how so yeah, I want to hear your version of the story.
Nancy: Well so way back when, when I barely had like 1100 names on my opt-in subscriber list and was just a tiny little minnow in the sea of online marketing, I was following you and your work because I thought here’s a woman who’s been a publicist in her former life who has now made a completely different way to serve in a much bigger way and I want to be like her when I grow up who hasn’t felt that way.
So, I was reading your newsletters with rapt attention and I saw one and it said I’m going to be doing this major publicity giveaway where I’ve tapped all the biggest names in publicity to give away their very best work for a very affordable price during this very specific window and it’s going to be your ticket to learn everything there is to know about publicity and I can’t wait to have you participate, it says something like that.
And I remember thinking to myself “wow” I would so love to have the opportunity to be included in something like that I think it could put me on the map. And I don’t remember exactly what happened but I think I might have reached out to you and said I see that you have this big event coming up and I have a lot of people in my world who want to learn that I wonder if I might support you as a joint venture partner and you didn’t even know who I was.
Nancy: But you said: “Well sure that’d be fine. I’ll send you the copy”. And so, she sent me the promotional copy, Susan did. And I got it all cued up and ready to go to my thousand sixty-five subscribers and then I think I found some courage and I said you know there could be the chance that some big wig that’s participating in this is going to drop off at the 11th hour and if you need somebody to stand in the breach just count on me, I’d love the opportunity to have that moment. And you were so gracious you said: “Well I’m not familiar with your work but why don’t you send some things my way and I’ll take a look at it.” Which felt to me like the door was like opening and then I wrote a handwritten note and I sent my bye bye boring bio workbook to your front porch and said something nice and you wrote to me not long after and I think you said something like this I don’t care if the big fish falls off the edge of the earth, I love your approach, I love your style, your material is excellent. I would be happy to have you included as a contributor.
Susan: Yes, yes and…
Nancy: and then I just felt like, “Oh my god my heart was beating out of my chest because everything changed for me after that.”
Susan: Wow and I’d love to hear what changed but I just want to say one of the reasons why I considered you was your approach. It was really respectful, you offered to show me your work, I didn’t need to go looking for it and you did say you admitted that you had a small list which a lot of people don’t, you’re like I have this list but you know what these people are really loyal and I will work so hard for you and I will do right by you and I believed you. You know and I believed in you and so yes I included you and I don’t know if you don’t remember this part but I had in within the mega sale I had buttons to click on for people to and it wasn’t free by the way. It was not a free thing, we didn’t do free things, that it was paid. So people had to actually buy.
So I had like four four buttons like on the page to see where people would buy and you came in the people on your list statistically-wise your response was bigger than any of the biggest marketers and that they clicked on the first link like I trust you because Nancy Juetten is here so your trust their trust in you translated to the trust in me they bought on the first link and you were I think number two in that sales there was a big marketer ahead of you but percentage-wise you were at the top of people that opted in and bought in terms of you know in terms of the percentage and I was like whoa that’s loyalty counts way more to me than volume right that people are devoted to her and those are the kind of people that I want in my realm, other people who are devoted to you and then you know extend out like what happened after I mean is. I don’t know what happened with you what I want to hear.
But years later Nancy invited me to stay at her house and go to Seattle and speak and you booked me like solidly for the weekend she booked like five speaking engagements. I was so tired. I needed to be sleeping in that bed of yours you know I was so tired. I just want to say that just a month ago somebody who has seen me speak it was eight years ago because they’re like I saw you speak eight years ago in Seattle I’m thinking wow I go they just connected with me and is now are now it was actually the husband of someone but she is now a client of mine from eight years ago with something really that I’m really excited about promoting so you don’t know in PR where you’re where you’re going to land in the world, who you’re going to connect with, when it’s going to happen.
I know people want it to happen like right now and it can there there’s things that can happen here but there’s also things that happen in stages years later like he remembered my talk eight years later like huh right he said you were memorable. I’m thinking what did, I do I don’t remember what I talked about right like what did I do.
The chocolate kisses brand signature
Nancy: Well I remember well we’ll get into the meat of this but I do remember a lot of what you said but one of the coolest things that you did at the end is you had a handful of chocolate kisses and you threw them into the air and everybody was reaching for them and it was just such a wonderful way to seal the presentation with something delicious that we would forever remember and that is another kind of it’s not really a sound bite but it was an experiential bite that we all have.
Susan: It’s a part of my brand. I’m just about to go to Cancun on Thursday to deliver a workshop and I have those chocolate kisses they’re golden kisses I give them out as like here are your golden publicity kisses it’s one of my trademarks so I’ve been doing this for maybe 20, 30, 25 years a long time you know but I just conceived of it and I just wanted to be able to give somebody I wanted to bless them at the end with these that publicity is possible for you, go out into the world, shine your light, give what you have to give and people will respond to you and that’s really the essence of it.
Nancy: Well it was very very memorable and for me what happened way back then I was just getting started and I remember you know a lot of people have list shame and they want to be somebody someday and you had revealed that you had thousands of people on your email list at that time and I remember thinking to myself I wonder when that’s going to happen for me, it’s only going to happen for me if I give first before I get, if I really deliver on my promises, if I put good energy out on behalf of people I truly admire at some point it’s going to come back to me.
And that really has been what has happened for me when you land on a leader board in a joint venture and you don’t think it’s a big deal like in the moment but what I discovered is that when your name shows up on a leader board amidst all the other usual suspects that play you’re like the new kid in town and if you finish in the top two or the top five or something people go holy mackerel there’s someone with some influence I better make friends with her because I’d love to have that level of advocacy bestowed upon what it is that I do and so it did really kind of put me on the elevator as far as
Susan: I’m so glad.
Nancy: welcoming invitations and stuff.
Susan: That’s wonderful I love that.
Nancy: So that’s how we met.
Whether big or small there is a place for you in the media
Susan: That’s how publicity works too. I mean it is you know an opening person warm hand to warm hand you know and it can happen like that on so many different levels and that’s why I think you know again people are looking sometimes for like the big volume or you know they’re looking for the today show or the view or whatever but it can really happen on your local penny saver that just moves up forward and I know we want to talk about messaging and things like that so I think that’s really important.
I want to tell you that the big producers and editors are always looking at the tiny publications because they’re looking for something unusual and that’s what happened with a gal who was in one of my learning annex classes way a long time ago the pet detective who had a tiny little article in like the I want to call it the moonshiner but it was like the penny saver or whatever the little local article and then the San Francisco Chronicle got a hold of it and then People Magazine noticed it and then she was on Animal Planet see it just went on from there but it was like that local free thing that you know you open up the bin I don’t know if we have we have some of them anymore but that’s where it started.
So wherever you are start with a podcast like Nancy’s the expert in that any kind of podcast and get your chops down and when I was a publicist Nancy what I would do when I booked my clients because they weren’t always experienced some of them were new authors or whatever I didn’t book them on the biggest we didn’t have podcasts then yet radio show or whatever I booked them and got my chops down on the smallest stations first because I wanted my clients to get the practice and the use and I wanted to practice my pitch to see what worked because I was like well if it’s not working I need to change it and hone it and I didn’t want it that to happen and lose my chance at the big shows, right?
So I called all the tiny shows first, I mean I didn’t tell my client this right like because they didn’t need to know that but I was getting my chops down as they were getting their chops down because you don’t know exactly always what’s going to land, you don’t know what kind of stories you’re going to tell that are going to land you need it’s an it’s a conversation between your audience and it’s an experiment whether it’s a speech or whether it’s and by the way in this master class that I just gave we did a workshop and I’m going to be doing another one for people who are interested coming up next week so if you’re on my list you’ll get a note for it so when I’m back from Cancun we’ll be doing a workshop on how to create your three hot hooks workshop.
So I created a worksheet and I did it in a master class and nobody could do it so what does that tell me it’s like that was the first time I’d done it. I’m like oh well how would I know that like I thought it was kind of obvious I thought there were next steps so what did I do I had to go back to that worksheet and make it more detailed and think what is it missing and how can I convey that more to my audience.
So the next time around hopefully it’s going to work better but if you’re in that workshop you will you will come away with your brilliant phrase your sloppy first copy of your three hot hooks and hopefully now people will be able to actually do it but that was great information for me and it’s the same thing with your messaging like sometimes you think you’re saying something that’s really landing with people and it just doesn’t and you have to practice it in lots of different ways until it makes that connection. Does that make sense?
3 Vital Stages of Getting the Media’s Attention
Nancy: It does make sense and I have a follow-up comment which is also a question is that finding those three hot hooks that are timely and newsworthy and relevant and worth talking about now more than ever that’s like step one when the host or the producer whoever it is says that’s what we want to talk about the next step is can you actually deliver when the lights are on, the mic is on and someone takes you out of left field with a question you weren’t expecting because some people are the kind of people that are so tight in their preparedness that you can feel it as soon as you see their face and their body on the air and some people are ready to roll with it but if you can’t deliver a message on point when you are asked a good question, well that’s a that’s a misstep that requires some practice to overcome and I’m sure you’ve had people had that happen. Care to share a story?
Susan: Yes and I’m so happy you brought that up because actually that is step three, you know we say we and you know this too because step one is preparing your key messages that’s number one because you don’t reach out to the media until you’ve got your messaging down because you don’t want to have that oh you know what moment when they do call so if even if you’ve got the best hot hook if you can’t deliver on that that is going to take you right out of the running asap and you may only have one chance certainly broadcast tv it is an audition and with the higher level ones by the way they usually have a pre-audition and same with radio like Terry Gross or marketplace all the high-level ones just like in some podcasts too there’s a there’s an assistant or a producer who does a pre-audition before you get accepted to be on the air.
So you want to have your key messaging down and in the in the new course that Nancy mentions Zen of Fame: Your Genius Gone Viral we focus on three things your messaging that’s key number one. Number two: having your system set up because PR brings people to your door you need to open it and usher them through that’s your opt-in your systems moving people through the buying process whatever that is. Number three: is creating that campaign those hot hooks and it’s the whole planning of that campaign so it’s not just sending things out willy-nilly but really planning who your where your perfect clients are and how do you shape the messaging that draws them in and grows your business in the direction you want.
How many soundbites should you have?
So to that point you want to have your key messages down and I say six sound bites that’s loose, you know I mean we want to have very fluid stories and points but you know within that you typically want stories, you want stories that show that you’re an expert. This is how you brag without bragging it’s talking about your client’s experience that they have with you and the results that they’ve gotten. Then the second part is do you have advice to give that you want to share that that you know knowledge that you have that other people don’t. The third thing and there’s many there’s more, but the third main thing is your opinions are you shaping a world view or an opinion of something that is unusual or fresh you know that’s how you start to elevate to thought leader-dom.
Like one of my clients now who she’s going to have an app, an app for hormones for women and hormones which is really super brilliant and one of the things that we’re talking about is her shaping the conversation around you being the decision maker in your health yes you get information from your doctor or your naturopath and that but ultimately you even if you’re getting using other sources are the one who’s going to make that ultimate decision with your own inner wisdom um and part of that is shaping the conversation about why not giving your power over to a doctor right so those are the kinds of conversations we want to start having in how are you framing a question or a perspective that’s important.
That is your unique perspective because we know that it’s like super competitive in this in any marketplace really but not when you start to have your own unique stories in your own unique point of view and that’s really important to cultivate so those are the things that are really important to do and part of that is a process like when I talk to people and you know Nancy everybody who wants to do a podcast or any kind of media needs to have their signature story down which is why do you do what you do because that’s the number one question anybody’s going to ask you so that’s super important to have that down why do you do what you do.
Nancy: So, let me ask a question about that.
Susan: Yeah time out time so that’s a great it’s like when to stop yes thank you.
Delivering Your Signature Story in 10-45 Seconds
Nancy: I’ve been helping people write their bios for the last 12 years and I have been at the receiving end of paragraph upon paragraph upon paragraph about somebody’s life story and this is what I call too much information when we’re talking about a podcast or a broadcast especially television national television. When you say why do you do what you do, I mean how many seconds do you want people to dial that into so they can deliver it quickly and with impact versus taking over staying their welcome on the air and not delivering the right content?
Susan: So in a in a TV interview it might be you want to have your bio or your chryon (an electronically generated caption superimposed on a television or movie screen) do part of that work so your work is super valuable. So it’s like what do you want that statement to say that’s below the your image on the screen that can already explain what you do and then your story is anywhere from if you can tell it in 10 seconds that’s fantastic to about 30 seconds sometimes on longer radio stations and on podcasts you might have 45 seconds but it probably shouldn’t be much longer than that. You’re going to have more time if you’re on stage in person to elaborate and to develop that and make that connection with your audience but it’s kind of…
Nancy: 10 to 45 seconds everyone who’s listening. 10 to 45 seconds, can you say why you do what it is that you do in that length of time. That is a very big idea! If I were to ask you Susan why do you do what you do – do you have your answer all ready to go?
Susan’s Signature Story Examples
Susan: Well of course I have a number of signature stories so I’ll tell you one of them so when I was in junior high. I was part of three different groups: the artists, the jocks and the populars. And one day I saw a kid being beaten up on the school ground and I ran over and I thought it was one of my artsy friends and I grabbed the guy off of him and like get off of him and I shouted to everybody who was looking like why are you guys watching this, get out of here. That moment I really realized I’m a protector of beauty, I’m a protector of people who don’t have a voice and that’s what I do today. So people today who come to me who want to be able to express themselves in any circumstance, in any way shape or form, on media zoom call that sort of thing I help them stay in their complete integrity to sell themselves without selling their soul, give them themselves their own authentic voice so they can get their offer and their beauty out into the world.
Nancy: Oh that’s so beautiful and that’s so much cooler and better than leading with where you went to school and how many years you’ve been doing it because what you just demonstrated is that it’s an idea that’s bigger than food clothing shelter it’s an idea that’s about allowing people to be fully expressed as the best that they can be and if that doesn’t create a connection with people who are listening I don’t know what else could that was really nicely done you said you had another one, why don’t you show us.
Susan: Oh well, yes another one so why do I do what I do one of the other things that um that I really love is I’m a black belt in Aikido, right? But I’m I would I am so ungraceful on the Aikido floor one of the reasons why I wanted to take Aikido is because I wanted the embodiment of like yes we’re talking here we’re sitting but I really wanted things to be completely embodied and so that’s why I trained in Aikido. I was also a former tennis pro, so I have I have the jock in me but I did that because what is most important when you are connecting with people is your presence and I know we chatted like maybe to talk about that and part of those practices are embodiment practices. Things that we do when we’re not on screen and some of them are breathing meditation and I just learned of a three-step process that I use that I’ve already used but I didn’t calculate it in this term but it’s Dr. Kim D’Eramo.
Number one is awareness, number two is breath and number three is choice. And I think it’s so important so we’re aware of like we’re nervous or feeling whatever we take the breath, we center, we calm and we make a choice: what’s going to come out of our mouth, how we are going to be, how we are going to act? And so to me that kind of embodiment is really what I’m training people on because when there’s the fear and the fake, all of that comes up and needs to be dealt with that’s you know yes you can have all of your great sound bites down but can you get them out when you’re actually put on the spot and this is kind of a I kind of went into another story so that wasn’t a whole complete story on its own but it was kind of another part of it you know another part of why I do what I do and what I’ve moved into in a more advanced way with people is developing their everything you do say are and think from your words to your website are in complete alignment with who you are.
Can You Communicate Your Value in 1 Sentence?
If I can sum up what I do in one sentence I can do that because it’s Gandhi’s phrase “My life is My Message”. When your life is your message then everything starts to come in alignment and it’s not outside of yourself it’s not the universe bringing things to you or the law of attraction. It’s you when you’re in alignment everything also lines up with the kind of by the vibrational tone that you give. So the tone of your vibration and the tone of your voice are super key components because if we’re not seeing you but we’re hearing we you’re we’re still feeling you, right?
And we’re feeling you through your voice but there’s also the feel of you the feel of your website the feel of who you are out into the world and that’s really the most important thing and you can then mess up your words you know I don’t even like to say that but I mean it’s kind of but it’s true it’s like we’ll still follow you. I remember Jerry Seinfeld said when he would create like the first joke and really work on that he said because once you have the audience with you, you can take them anywhere.
Perfectionism: Are you holding yourself back from success?
Nancy: Yes and so here’s something I wanted to comment about some people who are newer in their journey speaking up on stage in any capacity as a guest, as a trainer, as a speaker, as a breakout session leader. I have come across many people who have perfectionist disease. My slides are going to be perfect, my outfit’s going to be perfect, my hair is going to be perfect, I’m going to deliver this message in such a way that it is perfect to my way of thinking and what I’ve noticed about people who have that bias is that they may be perfect but there’s a big huge piece that’s missing which is there’s no connection with the performance to the people who are paying attention and that’s where the greatest magic really does reside so what would you say to people who are victims of perfectionism to the point that they forget to or miss out on the connection piece which is where all the magic is.
Susan: This is so so important, because connection is the most important thing, yeah, so that comes first. So if your you know message is not connecting it doesn’t matter how great it is. It is really establishing that, how should I say, how we’re alike and how we’re different just like what you were saying you know oh you know and I don’t know if we can mention the woman that you were talking about who is really beautiful. Do you want to say that part?
Nancy: Well, I’ll mention it.
Susan: Yeah, because I think that they’re
Nancy: You know I’ve done pretty well for myself over the last 20 years but I’ve been finding myself reaching up to people who are incredibly successful well beyond what I have achieved so far and when I find myself sharing the screen with people of that caliber sometimes I’ll wake up that day and look in the bathroom mirror and think to myself how am I going to hold a candle to that? Whether it’s somebody’s beauty, someone’s intelligence, someone’s thought leadership, someone’s whatever it is I immediately go to I’m less than and then I have to do this fight within my own body to say no they said yes to me I can be an amazing host and I intend to be an amazing host and I’m going to show up as my very best self but I do have these mental gymnastics that I go through when I’m feeling intimidated or if I’m being in the company of someone who’s in a much cooler club than I’ve earned my membership card just yet.
Susan: And to you you’ve probably used this phrase because you’re so good with these kinds of phrases but compare and despair.
Nancy: Oh yeah.
Susan: Yeah come here fair and I think we all have it in the internet age and in the Instagram age compare and despair. I think that’s about you know continually bringing yourself back to center and not thinking about yourself. In these moments of course we are and I was telling you I do it too there’s some really super glamorous people in my space and I’m not you know I’m more down-home girl and so but that’s not my superpower right like that my superpower is not glam.
And to stay centered and focused on what it is that you have to give but also to know that we’re always comparing our insights to other people’s outsides too because you had mentioned that this woman you know she was like well but you have got all this expertise so she was feeling intimidated but you were feeling it but by different reasons right and I think that there’s always going to be that and it’s not about pushing it aside it’s about acknowledging it and the beauty of that is saying what part of this do not do I not have that I could embody that I could work on, outer beauty may not be it unless you know you’re get better at putting on those false eyelashes and whatever which I debated about today but I’m like I’m not doing it.
To say you know if this is something that I really aspire to let me set myself a program on to do it but the most important thing about the perfectionism thing is it’s not about um what are people going to think of me if you can keep it switched on um really seriously like how can I give the audience what they and really it’s really two questions. What does my audience need to know now and how can I help? But it’s really you connecting with the audience on what you can give them that is in your own special way.
That you can give them that and if that can remain the focus then the perfectionism. Thanks for making that point. The perfectionism can start to drop away a little bit because it’s about I think if you make connection the most important thing then even sometimes when you have something planned you can let that go and go with the flow of the moment even if you think it’s like such an important point to be able to say actually what’s here now is the most important point and let me go with that and to be open to that and to be relaxed enough to recognize it when it happens.
And that you know one of the people in the program that I was talking about the Zen of Fame that’s what happened to him he was a doctor and a Sufi master and he was struggling with the messaging and when he was in front of an audience speaking he had the whole thing planned and then he’d really drop down and felt what the audience needed to hear and started to speak totally from his heart it’s not that it was that far off about what he had planned to say but it was really a different it was a different vibration and then at the end of that talk a person walked up to him and handed him a check for a hundred thousand dollars to support his university and said I believe in what you do and I wanted to keep going and then another person walked up and handed them a second check for a hundred thousand dollars.
So when you when you really connect deeply to your audience it’s not and that’s not necessarily about money right I’m talking about like continuing his work and his university yes it’s great to get two hundred thousand dollars but these are people who are moved into action because of what he said and because they believed in him and the same is true for you.
What to Do/Say When Asked an Unexpected/Controversial Question
Nancy: I love that. Now, sometimes when we are on an interview most hosts are very gracious and simply want to edify the host that the guests that they have on their show and engage in a quality conversation that they would want to have with any expert and to have the audience made better off. But we’ve all heard stories of hostile interviewers that wanted to catch somebody by surprise and derail their train of thought and get them down some road that would not be strategically ideal for any party. Do you have any suggestions about how to derail that hostile interview and to stay on point when the moments really matter?
Susan: Sure, yes lots, so and yes that happens all the time and I have media trained my clients for 60 minutes for Bill O’Reilly and you know other and also Dateline and Geraldo. You know all of those were like super controversial topics. So, I think my one client who was on Geraldo it was a very important legal case and actually someone went to jail. So, I’m not going to talk about what that was but it was very we vetted all of the sound bites via the attorney and we wanted to make sure that he stayed completely 100 percent on message because these are very short interviews, he was doing Fox News and other national news too but he had to stay very targeted on message for legal implications too. And behind the scenes at that interview the producer cameras are supposedly off but the cameras are always running and you were always on you were always you were always on record no matter what so asked him really like about 30 times to try to get him off his message.
And so you do want to have different ways of saying your message but if somebody is super hostile to you, it’s really great first of all to practice that energy because that kind of aggressive energy is really scary and by practicing it over and over again and with my clients and my workshop participants we practice worst case scenarios so sometimes I’m shouting at people because it’s much better to have me doing it than it is to have that to not have ever experienced it or so there’s three ways of intimidation really there’s the shouting allowed voice there’s aggression and then there’s intimacy asking a question that’s is invasive so one way to just handle the aggressive is not to try to stop it but this is an Aikido move where we allow the energy we accept the energy and we allow it and we allow the person to think that they’re we’re going in their direction but we’re actually slightly directing them off of their point.
So to that end never repeat a negative but if somebody asks you a harsh question what you can say is you can say you can buy time by going like, “Oh my god that’s so fascinating,” so a neutral tone can immediately just give you a chance to take a breath and ground yourself and then you may want to support that statement with statistics or with a bigger view and you might just acknowledge even that by going saying you can say oh that’s so fascinating or so many people probably want to know so many people want to know the answer to that and then you give the answer that you want so you’re not blocking it you’re going like oh yeah god that’s great you know like why did you, you know I think your research stinks and you don’t have you know viable um you know you it’s not viable and it hasn’t been proven you know and you go oh that’s such an interesting topic well we actually had you know 7000 people in this study that was double bind and so the results you know are do work and according to what is considered a viable study.
Nancy: Very good. You know I remember years ago Bill Gates this was before the public the personal computer had become the thing that it is today and he was on the today show and he was being interviewed and the first couple questions were kind of lobs across the bow and he’d say something like well our real vision here is that we want there to be a computer on every desk at Microsoft we believe that that’s really the future a computer on every desk and then somewhere in the middle of the interview another lob across the bow yeah I’m really glad you asked me that and our true vision here at Microsoft is that we will have a computer on every desk yeah and then as we got further into the thing it was some really tough question that was like taking him down some other path he says you know that’s a really interesting topic I’m really glad you asked I’m not prepared to talk about that today but what I am prepared to say is that this is Microsoft.
Susan: That’s a great that’s a great transition say, “I don’t know about that and what I do know is…” so even if you don’t say a but it’s even less of a thing a but is a little bit of a stop and you can say that so you can say I don’t know anything about that and what I do know is and then you just move right into your uh you’re not a politician so most people are not going to keep at you but if you are on a super controversial topic you better well have all of your facts and your opinions down cold and be able to say them in any circumstance with any personality and any situation but that is a lifesaver I don’t know any I don’t know about that and what I do know is that’s about.
Should you create a media persona?
Nancy: I love that so that brings me to another thing that I want to ask you about I have been told that I’m really great with a sassy sound bite that I turn a phrase really well and that it’s good theatre for the mind and it’s really especially useful during podcast guesting because podcast guesting is all about listening and if you can be a gift to someone’s listening ear that’s a great thing but I’ve also heard that a lot of people get intimidated at the prospect of having to be clever or humorous or alliterative or any of that these theme tends to be things that I love to do that come very naturally to me but a sound bite does not have to be clever or poetic or rhythmic or alliterative to be effective isn’t that true?
Susan: No that’s really true and don’t go…
Nancy: Nail that comment like get that get people off the fence and say I’m not clever and I’m not perky and I’m not this but what do you have can you be clear can you be you know talk about that.
Susan: Yeah, the clever quip is not going to bring you in business you know it might be more say that again.
Nancy: That was really good.
Susan: It’s not going to bring you in business that what is your point of doing publicity what is your point of being out here is it to grow your business in the direction you want, to make connections, to make partnerships, to create great things in the world, a clever quip is not going to do that for you. It might be memorable, you might be able to repeat, it might be really entertaining for the moment and it’s nice to have those to weave in, but that’s not what does it.
Nancy: What does it then?
Susan: What does that is your solid stories that people connect to and moving people with an emotion that they and being able to be relating to you and saying I and being for them from being able to say for you to be able to say things like I need this now and she’s the one for me he’s the one for me they are the one for me you know their and or their product service cause is right for me and to create uh um visceral connective things that you can see feel hear touch that people will remember um that that’s beyond the one sentence kind of thing it’s like you know this this is a phrase that Maya Angelou said, “People don’t remember what you say they remember how you made them feel,” and that’s it and how do those little clever quips make you feel you know if you laugh I mean that’s great because that’s an opening right like that’s a beautiful opening and I think if you have one say it you know like one of my clients um said um astrology is a guide not a god that’s a great line but it’s also really important it was really important in her work because she didn’t want people to use astrology as a god you know so if you can sum up your life work in a sentence yes yes.
Nancy: I love that. You know I’m going to take that to heart myself I tend to go quickly to the clever clip because it’s just something that I do.
Susan: You’re so good at it.
Nancy: And it’s fun for me I mean I actually worked with a coach a number of years ago and he was saying to me I think you should dial back the way you talk because I think it might be intimidating for people or it might not be doing you any favors. I’m a grown-up now and I don’t take every piece of advice that a coach gives me but I said to him after some reflection I said yeah but if I dumb all that down and then they end up working with me and all these clever quips come out of me like music what they’re going to wonder which one is it, who’s the real thing? I would just rather be myself and my full expression and have that be a magnet for the right people to be attracted to me than to try to wash it out of my hair and admit that it doesn’t exist because there really is no washing that out of my hair you know.
Susan: No and you’re super great at it and I want to send people to you for that because that is not my gift and the gift is I mean I believe that people have it all inside of them. So the gift is to actually draw it out of the people themselves so they say it in the way that feels natural and good to them the brilliance of working with you is that you can say some things that people don’t know how to articulate and you have the ability to articulate it very succinctly in ways that people remember and that is a really great gift to know not to dial it back and the only caveat I would say is the only and I think this has to do more with the feeling than the actual quip is it putting people off or is it connecting is it in the vein of I not a separation like I’m cleverer than you but is the is it in service to people so they can either remember something better or that you’re shaping their gifts in a way that’s helpful to them so I think the intention behind the quip is more is important for the quip and then people will take it in the spirit that it’s given oh she’s not doing that to be um better than me.
Zen of Fame: Your Genius Gone Viral Course
Nancy: Well I think what you’re saying about intention is really where it all has to start when we’re doing any kind of communicating at all which is what is my intention in showing up on this interview what is my intention in showing up on this podcast what is my intention in speaking up on that stage if we can connect to our boldest intention in service to people then our intentions are close to our heart which means that everything we get to as you say everything we do say are and think is congruent with the message that we are delivering in which case there will be a connection and when there is an opportunity to take a step forward closer in a direction of yours people will only be too glad to do it which is a perfect segue for me to say your course that I’m going to say correctly the Zen of Fame: Your Genius zone Gone Viral
Susan: Your Genius Gone Viral
Nancy: You’re a genius that’s the way this is
Susan: Funny I hired a copywriter for that so someone came up with that you know both of those two phrases that I have trademarked you’re yeah, the Zen of Fame
Nancy: Well, tell us what this is all about tell us what it’s all about and why it’s something we need to take a step closer in your direction to learn more about and to participate.
Susan: Yeah thank you for thank you for that here first of all it’s based on my book Sell Yourself Without Selling Your Soul® and the reason why I wrote that book is for anybody who felt like they were bragging begging or whoring to get good publicity or thinking that they have to be more like someone else or do something like someone else or something that they weren’t instead of really diving and delving into who you are and giving that expression, what you called the full expression out in the world.
That’s why I wrote that book and I think 2002 it was a long time ago it was before the conscious entrepreneur movement so to speak and by the way you know in HarperCollins asked me to write the copy for their catalog and I wrote Susan harrow is a leader of the socially conscious movement of which did not exist right yeah because the socially conscious entrepreneur didn’t exist and they printed it and then publishers weekly printed that so be careful what you say about yourself too. But that was the beginning of being a leader in the in the socially conscious entrepreneurial movement meaning I work with people who really are doing something that that may not everyone because I you know but people who are wanting to make a real difference now it’s sort of common language but it wasn’t then making a difference to millions or whatever that is for you um making a difference to someone but like really having that effect.
So the course really delves into those three parts which is your messaging what are you going to say to grow your business in the direction you want to really grow those partnerships those kinships the audience the sales all of that in and then number two is that how do you set up your systems to make that happen and the number three is um how do you set up a campaign that fits your style suits your style and your temperament that feels really good to you that you know that you can do to get your message out into the world and really the outcomes that have happened.
Like one person who took the course you know got booked on NBC five times and tripled her speaking fees from $5000 to $15,000. um another woman got sponsorships for you know radio shows and got a whole tour done for I’m not sure if her book was self-published but um but essentially got a whole media tour this was obviously before the pandemic paid for and got out there to support their cause with her book so all of these kinds of things can sort of open up a huge world for you and it’s all self-paced and you go at your own you go your own pace and then we also give you.
One thing that I do want to say is I do give you a 27 minute consult to get you started to create your blueprint so you’ve got that 27 minutes with me and also we’re going to give you a hundred a list of a hundred contacts so if you want to do this yourself you have some place to start but there’s but there’s so much more in that course but really what we’re looking for is can you be calm and confident and deliver your message and get out there in the world to the venues that you want and have real results and I am I’m a huge person both internal growth you know people who move from fear to confidence as well as being able to um sell more books products services that sort of thing yeah
Nancy: So, I will drop the link to this course in the show notes so that people can go directly there when I went there today wasn’t there two tiers of membership where they could do the course and then that if they went VIP, they actually get two consults with you.
Susan: Yes so the VIP if you want to go VIP you get two 57-minute consults with me in addition to the 27-minute consult to get you started so um a lot of people when I did that when I offered it the first time around somebody had told me I don’t think it was you people are not going to take your free consult don’t worry just give it away every single person took it which is really great you know I mean I had the great experience of hearing what people needed but I was a very, very busy gal.
Nancy: Well, it’s a wonderful I love that you built on your thought leadership with the Sell Yourselves Without Selling Your Soul® epic work to create this new course that gives people something that a lot of people are asking for these days which is many courses they go to our hard drives and never see the light of day but yours gets brought alive when they go VIP with these private sessions with you so that they have the opportunity to sit at the feet of the soundbite siren herself.
Susan: You gave me that idea.
Susan: By the way I hadn’t and my original one I hadn’t offered that you goes and I love doing those one-on-one consults and you do too and I thought oh yeah yeah so thank you for that.
Nancy: Yeah that’s the cool thing about us you know I discovered that in my own course I teach something called the broadcaster bruins boot camp and when I was just the first three or four times that I taught it what I was noticing is that I was hungry to have more connection with the people who were participating so I could know what was going on behind the scenes and what was coming up for them and how we could elevate their experience and I just sort of test drove what if you could have this too would that be a value and people were like all over it it’s like isn’t it great when the client gets what they want and you get more of what you want so then everybody gets to do say think and say I think right yeah in total congruence you know.
So I’m so glad you’re doing that so it’s say the name of the course again without yeah your genius gone viral and the other thing that I want to say is I haven’t been doing group coaching for a while but if people want it and you ask for it there’s group coaching um mp3s in there from the past that I’ve done but I have I’m not doing it this session but if enough people say you know I really want this group coaching then I’ll do it you know in in addition to the well we just have to figure out what that would look like yeah.
How to deal with Imposter Syndrome
Nancy: Well and I think it’s so good to have your ear to the ground to know what people are asking for because those of us who want to live our own genius are only here to respond opportunities that are being voiced by our own communities and I think that those I mean you and I are great examples of that.
There’s one other thing that I wanted to ask you about before we close and I saw this on your website somewhere but imposter disease is kind of a big deal people sell themselves short and still sell themselves long do you have any not necessarily clever quips but important wisdom around helping people take that crown of imposter disease and to set it aside so they can step up and be confident and clear and concise and credible and courageous and delivering their messages whatever they may be.
Susan: Yeah I’m glad you asked me about that because I’m really thinking about this and I’m actually creating a course on it a quiz and of course because it seems to be up for so many people and I thought gosh this is so important um this imposter syndrome and it and it stems from you know the one is the comparing so number one so we’ve already talked a little bit of a strategy of doing that so you don’t just drop into despair right but the other thing is and perfectionism is part of that too there’s like all of these different tenets but I think one of the other things that’s like super important about this imposter syndrome is not looking outside of yourself for acceptance because part of imposter syndrome is like what are people thinking about me and I know that this is a big thing and it’s not something that happens overnight but it’s continually saying to yourself you know that question what do I and really saying you know I think that we need to stack up the evidence of the kind of impact that we’re making and really look at it and take it in because I know as women you know we brush off the compliment we like we need and this is a practice to start taking it in what have I accomplished like what are my skills like to do a real skill assessment so then when somebody says.
I actually heard a woman just say I loved this she’s like she gave a broadcast she has millions of views on YouTube and she said something and lots of people attacked her and you know what she did nothing she gave them no energy because that is the most powerful thing to not give the negative trolls or whoever is she thought I don’t even need to have this conversation they misunderstood what I said but that’s not my business. And that is so hard for all of us myself included but I thought hey I’m going to take that in because not only if I don’t I don’t need to respond to that negative conversation. I actually don’t need to give it any energy and that’s the fastest way to let that to let that drop but to start to recognize all of those kind of conversations as they we come at us in the internal conversation in our head too like you know I’m not good enough I’m not this and that well is that really true I mean ask the Byron Katie question is that really true how do I…
Nancy: Oh I have to say something about him I love Byron Katie’s work but when she when you ask yourself the question is this true and you can undeniably say no it is not it is such a powerful thing and I had a situation a few weeks ago where someone lobbed an insult my way that really upset me to my core it was so untrue that I was derailed that anyone would even hold such an opinion about me and I was thinking about this is this true is this true and it absolutely wasn’t and so the person said you were forbidden from using these words in any of your marketing and I said well why would that be I’ve owned the URL for that since 2011.
Like I own that I’m allowed to you know I could feel myself getting all defensive yeah so instead of getting defensive like it wasn’t true so I found a receipt from this domain registration site with the date of the purchase that I had purchased these words that I was going to own going forward and I simply responded with here’s proof of performance of the data which I claimed these words as my own and that’s all I said and that ended the conversation but when you are being backed into a corner where somebody is saying you are whatever which was not completely untrue I thought it’s not true and I have proof and there’s no words I need to put behind it beyond the proof that I have and I’m moving on but the is it true yeah that’s a good one thank you Byron Katie you know.
Susan: Is it true and you know so you can you know you could respond two ways not by not even delivering the proof because you don’t need to why do you have to prove it to her do you know what I’m saying like there so we could respond what you did is was right for you wanted to you had the proof and it was important to you to show that that proof and maybe to stop the harassment you know too like so we so there’s not one right answer in that way like what is true for me what was true for you is you wanted to stop the harassment you wanted to stop that energy and that’s the way you did it and that’s what was right for you so that’s always the question what is right for me some people might choose to respond and get into a conversation around that that’s their choice too
Nancy: Well and in these hostile situations I always go back to and I don’t know who said it first but it was how you do anything is how you do everything yeah and in their when there’s a conflict and there’s something at stake that matters to both parties my husband always says assume good intentions practice blameless problem solving and do the right thing regardless.
Susan: That’s really great advice.
Nancy: And so he’s like.
Susan: Well, I mean those three things.
Nancy: They’ll be here in minute 42 or whatever 55 but yeah right some good intentions practice blameless problem-solving and do the right thing and if how you do that how you do that is how you do everything then over the course of a lifetime people will have a consistent experience of you and as you say what you do say are and think will be congruent and people will have that bridge of trust built that has been established over years of time where they have no doubt that doing business with you would be in their best interest I think we all have to take responsibility for that and that is the words that we speak on camera the way we show up physically the way we um the intention we bring to our words whether we have a clever quip or a concise clear message as long as the intentions are clean we should be in good shape and so I know there’s like so much more we could say about messaging and sound biting for credibility authority and profitability.
I’m so pleased that I got to introduce my tribe to the amazing Susan Harrow today the woman who I discovered along my journey who was like a beacon of light to help shine the light that I could become an expert in my own right and here we are colleagues peers and friends all these many years later I’m so grateful to know you and have you in my world so thank you for being here today
Susan: Thank you thank you for that.
Nancy: Any parting thoughts before we wrap this up
Susan: I love ending on this intentionality because I think it’s so but I want to say one thing about that because I’ve been thinking a lot about this too like I practice, I do a practice called be a wish fulfilling jewel and it’s just imagining a beautiful you know I imagine like it’s a Buddhist practice but it’s you know my heart you know reaching out to others and being a beacon of joy and that’s a practice that I have and for about really almost a year I haven’t been able to do it with a really good feeling I still do it and I practice it but I couldn’t muster like I usually can feel like I have a really good feeling you know with you and we’re exchanging that and I can really feel it you know here to here to here and I thought god should I keep doing this?
Like is it doing anything is it helping anyone is it helping me because it doesn’t even feel good and I can’t get the feeling and I just kept doing it for a year with no feeling and I just thought well I’m going to just continue this practice because you never know and it’s not that I’m looking for the quote unquote result but I’m it’s in the practice because we don’t know when the seed is going to sprout and there’s a saying that you know don’t dig up your seeds like you plant them but don’t you have to let them sprout and the bamboo by the way can stay underground and not sprout and then in four years it can in that one year it can shoot up to be 60 feet and so just like two weeks ago something shifted and I can now feel myself being a wish-fulfilling jewel again.
Nancy: Oh! that’s beautiful!
Susan: I don’t know what I can’t tell you what it was it’s not like a one thing but I can tell you that that a shift happened so for everyone like if you think like I’m pedaling as fast as I can and nothing’s happening that that is when um it’s continuing to do that deep intention even if it’s not yet fully embodied to keep working to make it fully embodied and just to keep practicing and making those little tiny shifts because it’s not the 10,000 hours it’s or the 10,000 things that you do it’s 10,000 things making an incremental shift each time that’s going to move you forward.
It’s not doing exactly the same thing and I tried all different things like different times of doing the fulfilling jewel you know different positions in bed you know I mean I just try like I’m like well maybe it’s the positioning you know what I mean but I was just like well let me see if I can tweak this a different way and then it’s like well whatever but you don’t know so sometimes you’re going to be the bamboo.
Nancy: Well and you have to believe and behave as if it’s going to happen in your whole heart and being and one of the things that I say
Susan: Even without evidence.
Nancy: Right I say to myself and invites my cousin says as well my work is worthy of a much wider audience and my business is worthy of sales beyond expectations and I’m ready for opportunity even before it knocks I say these three things to myself every single day I’ve said them to myself all year long and for years leading up to it and is it so amazing that I gave a talk for 12 toastmasters last week someone asked to listen to the replay loved it so much that they’ve invited me to speak to 1500 people at the top of the new year.
Susan: Oh my god.
Nancy: It’s like if you believe and behave as if it will whatever it is it’s going to be for you if you were going to be a wish fulfilling jewel and you’re going to believe in that and embody that you will bring it about what you think about you bring about so your work is worthy of a much wider audience your business is worthy of sales beyond expectations you will get ready for opportunity before it knocks and that means naming and claiming your message your method your sound bites and practicing them everywhere you go even.
Susan: And I love that that you know they’re 12 people because some people were you know there was just 12 people on there you know and you didn’t go like there’s just 12 little people no you gave yourself Nancy: I gave the most important people were in that room and what do you know the most important people were in that room and that would be one other little tip is don’t forget to ask when you’re giving a pro bono talk you may have access to the replay to repurpose as you may see fit because that is exactly what I did and now these wonderful doors are opening.
Nancy: So we’re all bamboo in the making if we can just affirm that these are the things that we believe we will be a wish fulfilling jewel we will be all these things but if we need to get our sound bites down and we need to make the most of our moments at the microphone with powerful messaging that transcends and is remembered Susan Harrow is an outstanding resource and the couse the name of your course one more time is?
Susan: The Zen of Fame: Your Genius Gone Viral
Nancy: The link in the chat thank you so much for being my guest today I can’t wait to see what people are saying I’ll be sharing this out in all the ways that I can because together our work deserves a much wider audience and the rising tide lifts all the boats so thank you so much if you’ve enjoyed this go ahead and post a comment in the chat if you have a topic you want me to cover for a future learn more earn more please let me hear from you and be sure to subscribe so you never miss a single episode of the learn more earn more show with yours truly Nancy Juetten the get known get paid mentor thank you so much and we will see you next time.
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